What if the missing piece in your leadership is not more strategy but more empathy? 

Bill and Kristi Gaultiere say empathy is oxygen for the soul, and many leaders are gasping without realizing it. 

They join Matt to unpack how Jesus models secure attachment with the Father and how we can receive and reflect that love in daily life.

Bill and Kristi name the empathy deserts many of us grew up in, why ministry culture often rewards self-neglect, and how receiving care is not a luxury. It is discipleship. 

The conversation lands with the Four A’s of Empathy. Ask. Attune. Acknowledge. Affirm. Practice these, and watch connection and courage return.

If you are ending a role, beginning again, or preparing for a hard meeting, this episode offers biblical wisdom and field-tested tools to do hard things with Jesus’ easy yoke.

Sixty episodes. More than 70,000 downloads. And countless stories of leaders who’ve walked through suffering, loss, and transition - and discovered God’s faithfulness in the middle of it all.

In this season finale, Matt Davis pauses to look back on the lessons of Season Four. 

From transformational suffering to leadership in crisis, from the wilderness of interruption to the challenge of succession planning, these conversations have pointed us toward what truly sustains ministry.

More than just a recap, this is an invitation. An invitation to reflect on what God may be stirring in your own life and to consider how you might come alongside leaders who are navigating the hardest moments of ministry.

What if waiting until you’re ready keeps you from ever starting? 

In this episode of Life After Ministry, Matt Davis sits down with Holly Tate, founder of The Ready Network, to talk about leadership, courage, and stepping into the unknown.

Holly shares her own story of transition - from years at Vanderbloemen, to joining Leadr, to launching her own work helping leaders and teams move from stuck to unstuck. 

Along the way, she opens up about fear, the myth of readiness, and how emotional intelligence shapes the future of ministry leadership.

For pastors, boards, and ministry leaders wrestling with change, this episode offers both empathy and clarity: you don’t have to have it all figured out. You just need the courage to take the next step.

Every ministry transition comes with both a push and a pull. Sometimes you’re drawn toward a new calling. Other times you simply know you can’t stay. 

For Tim Stevens, those moments have shaped four decades of leadership in the church - and given him a front-row seat to hundreds of leaders navigating their own endings and beginnings.

In this conversation, Tim shares candidly about untangling his identity from the church he helped build, why pastors often stay too long, and how to navigate the grief and uncertainty that come with leaving. 

From decades at Granger Community Church to crisis leadership at Willow Creek during COVID, Tim has lived through seasons that tested both his loyalty and his leadership instincts.

Now, through Leading Smart, he walks pastors and boards through governance challenges, succession planning, and leadership transitions. 

Tim offers practical wisdom for both leaders in the second chair and those tasked with guiding major shifts - always with the reminder that ministry endings can be done in ways that protect people, preserve purpose, and prepare for what’s next.

What if the health of your ministry depends more on your board than you think? Dr. Michael Anthony has spent 40 years in boardrooms - as a member, chair, consultant, and C-suite leader - and he’s seen what works and what breaks ministries apart.

In this candid conversation, Dr. Anthony unpacks common mistakes boards make, the unseen cost of poor governance, and the simple practices that lead to longevity and mission health.

From defining lanes to using a “log of motions,” from succession planning to EQ, he explains why leadership transitions succeed - or fail - long before the public ever sees it.

And he gets personal, sharing the story of his most painful ministry transition, the “dark night of the soul” it brought, and how God restored his joy and purpose.

Whether you’re a ministry leader, board member, or walking through a transition, this episode will give you tools to strengthen your leadership and hope for what’s next.

What happens when a leader transitions not just into a new role - but into their calling? 

In this episode, Matt Davis introduces Ron Henry, the newly appointed Chief Succession Officer at Ministry Transitions. Ron brings decades of experience in executive placement and career development, but his deeper calling? 

Helping leaders find where God wants them next.

This isn’t just a career conversation - it’s a soul-level journey. 

Ron shares raw stories of failure, fear, and faith, revealing what makes a transition succeed or fall apart. 

Whether you're facing a career shift, retirement, or leading an organization through change, this episode is packed with wisdom you need now - not someday.

If you’ve ever asked, “What’s next for me?” - this conversation is your next step.

What do scuba diving, salary spreadsheets, and severance packages have in common? According to David Fletcher - everything. 

In this episode, Matt sits down with the founder of xPastor and longtime executive pastor, David Fletcher, to talk about the messy, complicated, and deeply human work of leadership transitions in the church.

They unpack the real cost of bad transitions - not just in dollars, but in broken trust. 

Dave shares stories from his 30+ years in ministry, including firing people he loved, navigating church politics without losing his soul, and why a generous severance might be the best culture-shaping tool a church has. 

You'll also hear how he and his wife built a thriving marriage in the middle of ministry chaos, and why their daily Starbucks date is sacred.

It's honest. It's wise. It’s surprisingly funny. And it’s a masterclass for anyone leading people, especially in the church.

What if the scariest thing about leaving ministry wasn’t the loss of your job - but the loss of your identity? 

In this episode, Matt sits down with Josh Taylor, former executive pastor turned chief marketing officer, who opens up about what it’s really like to step off the platform and into the unknown. 

From twelve years of trusted leadership in a growing church to a surprising turn through a university layoff and a marketing agency for car washes, Josh’s story is full of quiet pivots, faithful risk-taking, and unexpected grace.

But this isn’t just about changing careers. It’s about the slow death of pride, learning to hear God's voice outside the church walls, and becoming the kind of husband, father, and friend you were always meant to be.

If you’ve ever wondered what ministry looks like when your title disappears - or felt a holy nudge toward “something more” - this conversation will meet you right where you are.

Alicia Lee didn’t leave ministry. She left Wall Street.

After nearly two decades at Goldman Sachs, Alicia was managing a massive trading floor and rubbing shoulders with IPO titans like Jack Ma and Snapchat execs. She loved the fast pace. She was good at it. 

And then God pulled the plug. A missed promotion became a divine pivot - and what followed was not a sabbatical, but a startup.

In this episode, we dive deep into Alicia’s unlikely journey from investment banking to launching Faithly, a digital ecosystem for ministry leaders - built not to replace community, but to amplify it. 

She opens up about her hustle, her heartbreak, and her unshakeable sense of calling.

If you’ve ever wrestled with identity in a transition, if you’ve ever been tempted to white-knuckle your way to the next thing, or if you’re still unsure what ministry looks like outside the walls of the church - this conversation will hit home.

Alicia’s story isn’t just about leaving a job. It’s about finding your voice when your title disappears.

What do you do when ministry success comes at the cost of your soul?

In this episode, we sit down with Jon Talbert - pastor, coach, and founder of Forte - to talk about the quiet unraveling that often happens behind the scenes in leadership. 

Jon has led at the highest levels of church and nonprofit work, but somewhere along the way, he realized he was losing himself in the process. What followed wasn’t a dramatic exit - but a deliberate shift. A reckoning. A redefinition of calling.

If you’ve ever questioned your role, your rhythm, or even your relevance in ministry, this conversation will hit close to home. 

Jon gets honest about burnout, identity, and why courage sometimes looks like letting go.

This isn’t just about recovering from ministry. It’s about discovering what’s next - with less fear and more freedom.

Bill Simmons thought he was in control - until a child soldier in the Congo held him at gunpoint. In that moment, as the AK-47 clicked into place, Bill realized the terrifying truth: control was an illusion.

Years later, as the CEO of a global nonprofit, he faced a different kind of pressure - leading an organization, carrying the weight of a mission, and pushing through exhaustion. 

But this time, the gun wasn’t in someone else’s hands. It was the slow, creeping pressure of burnout, and it was just as dangerous.

In this episode, Bill shares how he went from being a leader on the brink to discovering the power of interruption.

He unpacks why so many pastors and ministry leaders are running on empty, why stepping away feels impossible, and how his sabbatical at a silent monastery changed everything.

Burnout isn’t a badge of honor - it’s a warning sign. If you feel the weight of ministry pressing down on you, this conversation is your lifeline.

Matthew had been hiding a secret for years. A secret that was growing, festering, and slowly creating a wedge in his marriage. 

He was a pastor. A leader. A man who thought he had it under control - until he didn’t. Until Joanna asked him the one question he had spent years avoiding.

In that moment, everything unraveled. Their marriage. Their ministry. The future they had planned.

What do you do when the thing you're struggling with is the very thing you’re called to help others with? When the shame is suffocating, and the voices in your head tell you you're disqualified?

In this episode, Matthew and Joanna Raabsmith open up about betrayal, confession, and the long road to healing. They reveal how their journey nearly cost them everything - and how, through the wreckage, they found a new calling.

If you’re a pastor, a ministry leader, or just someone feeling like you've lost your way, this episode is for you.

What do you do when life shatters around you? 

When everything you built - your family, your future, your faith - feels like it’s slipping through your fingers?

Bryan Elliott knows suffering intimately. 

A tragic accident left his brother in a vegetative state. 

Addiction nearly destroyed his daughters. 

A brutal murder stole one of them forever. 

His businesses collapsed. 

His marriages unraveled. 

His world should have crushed him.

But it didn’t.

Instead, Bryan woke up the morning after his daughter's murder with something that made no sense: peace. 

Not numbness. 

Not denial. 

Actual, undeniable peace. 

And then, something even crazier - joy.

How?

This episode of Life After Ministry goes deep into the mystery of suffering, not as something to survive, but as something that transforms. 

Bryan doesn’t just talk about enduring pain - he talks about what it means to co-suffer with Christ, to find God in the darkest pit, and to come out on the other side more alive than ever. 

If you’ve ever walked through a season where God felt absent - where the wilderness stretched on too long and the heartbreak felt too heavy - this is the episode you need to hear.

Because maybe, just maybe, your suffering isn’t the end of the story. Maybe it’s the beginning of something bigger than you ever expected.

Key Takeaways

• Why suffering is not just something to endure, but something God uses to transform us.

• The kingdom principle of co-suffering with Christ and how it leads to co-glorification.

• How to recognize God’s presence in the darkest seasons, even when He feels silent.

• Why suffering is an accelerant in spiritual growth and how it prepares us for what’s next.

• The role of grief, loss, and pain in shaping our faith and revealing God’s goodness.

• How Bryan’s story of unimaginable suffering led to an unshakable trust in God’s sovereignty.

Chapter Markers

00:10 | Welcome & Bryan’s background01:15 | A tragic accident that unraveled his family07:31 | When life keeps taking - divorce, addiction, business collapse16:23 | The moment Bryan’s daughter was murdered17:06 | Waking up with peace - and why it didn’t make sense20:54 | Why suffering is an accelerant, not an obstacle26:22 | What we’re missing about suffering as believers33:42 | Encouragement for those walking through suffering40:51 | How to move forward and trust God in the process

If you’re walking through a season of suffering, you don’t have to navigate it alone. 

We’re giving away 14 copies of Bryan’s book, As In Heaven, for free. Be one of the first 14 people to email talk@pastoraltransitions.com, and we’ll send you a copy.

Want more resources on navigating life after ministry? Visit PastoralTransitions.com for guides, support, and practical help to walk through this season with clarity and hope.

To dive deeper into Bryan's ministry and find more resources on healing, restoration, and kingdom living, visit M46Ministries.com.

This is one of the most raw, gut-honest conversations we’ve ever had. Listen now, and let it reshape how you see suffering.

The church is supposed to be a place of healing. But what happens when it’s the source of the hurt?

Too often, we hear stories of toxic leadership, forced terminations, and broken congregations. And yet, no one wants to talk about it - not in the pulpit, not in the pews. The result? Wounds that never heal, pastors who burn out, and churches stuck in cycles of dysfunction.

In this episode, we sit down with Kayleigh Clark from Restory to talk about church trauma, spiritual abuse, and the path toward real healing. This isn’t just theory - it’s real-life ministry, where pain meets restoration.

Stepping out of ministry can feel like stepping into a free fall. For Jonathan Carone, leaving his church staff role wasn’t just a career transition - it was a journey of unraveling identity, reconciling relationships, and rediscovering purpose. In this episode of Life After Ministry, Jonathan shares his raw and honest story of being “coached off staff,” the lessons he learned in untangling his vocation from his identity, and how he found his way to thriving outside the walls of the church.

What if the missing piece to a thriving ministry isn’t more strategy or programs but healthier culture? In this episode of Life After Ministry, we dive deep with Jenni Catron, a renowned culture coach, to uncover the secret sauce behind teams that thrive. 

Together, we explore how great leaders don’t leave culture to chance - they build it with clarity and intention.

Jenni shares her personal journey from working in the record industry to executive church leadership and why culture became her passion. She opens up about her “aha moment” of realizing how deeply culture shapes our experiences and why neglecting it can derail even the best ministries. 

Whether you’re a leader navigating toxic environments or simply trying to build a team that flourishes, this conversation delivers wisdom and practical tools to take your culture to the next level.

In this special episode of the Life After Ministry Podcast, Matt Davis, Bill Tom, and Noe Rivera—the founders of Pastoral Transitions—take listeners behind the scenes of their work, sharing insights into the emotional and practical challenges pastors face during ministry transitions.

From navigating grief and burnout to finding new career paths and healing spiritually, this conversation sheds light on the complexities of pastoral life after ministry. They explore how churches can handle transitions with love, care, and intentionality, and they share hopeful stories of pastors finding new beginnings.

This episode isn’t just about transitions—it’s about reshaping the way we approach them in the church. Whether you’re a pastor in transition, a church leader, or someone supporting ministry workers, this discussion is packed with wisdom and practical takeaways.

Why is it that modern churches seem so successful in introducing people to Jesus but struggle to lead them into a life of true transformation?

Brian Fisher doesn’t hold back as he critiques the American church’s failure to address the deeper stages of discipleship. Drawing from his own journey through loss, reflection, and rebuilding, Brian shares his vision for a radically different approach: smaller, intimate communities focused on spiritual formation instead of surface-level engagement.

In this episode, Brian and Matt discuss how “the wall” in the discipleship journey forces us to confront our brokenness and deepen our relationship with Christ. Brian introduces his groundbreaking concept of “greenhouses,” spaces designed to cultivate deep spiritual growth, and how they differ from traditional small groups.

For anyone longing to go beyond the basics of faith, this episode is a must-listen.

What do you do when the life you built for the kingdom—your identity, your mission, your livelihood—gets ripped away without explanation?

For Brian Fisher, founder of a thriving pro-life nonprofit that saved over 18,000 lives, the answer wasn’t immediate. In 2020, he and his wife were forced out of the ministry they built. Their possessions came home in cardboard boxes, and their community turned silent.

In this raw and honest episode, Brian reflects on the crushing loneliness and profound disorientation that followed. But this isn’t just his story—it’s the story of countless ministry leaders who face the same unspoken challenges.

Together, we explore what happens on “Day One” after hitting rock bottom and begin to uncover the tools for navigating the inward journey, the wall, and the deep transformation that only comes through suffering.

Imagine being just weeks away from your wedding and finding out through a third party that you've been fired from your church. This is exactly what happened to Wes Gay.

In this episode of Life After Ministry, host Matt Davis and guest Wes Gay dive into the difficult transitions from church ministry to marketplace success.

Together, they explore what it means to be forced out of a role you thought defined you, and how to build a thriving career outside the church while using the same skills honed in ministry.