LIFE AFTER
MINISTRY
STORIES OF WHAT NOW AND WHAT’S NEXT
Explore Life After Ministry
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Episode 102 - Your Bylaws Would Like a Word (featuring Sheila Bennett)
Some churches find their bylaws only after a pastor announces a departure. Then they discover the documents haven’t been reviewed in decades.
Sheila Bennett would rather help a board ask those questions earlier. With more than twenty years in church finance and operations, she sees governance as part of caring for the people doing ministry.
Sheila joins us to discuss why churches need structures that serve the organization beyond its current leader.
We talk about choosing board members for more than proximity, understanding a congregation’s relationships, and making sure someone owns the work happening behind the scenes.
There’s also an honest exchange about why pastors avoid this material. We would prefer Leviticus to business paperwork. Sheila explains why she finds purpose in the details we’d gladly hand to someone else.
Episode 101 - How Father-Son Ministry Succession Works (featuring Jonathan & David Shibley)
Jonathan Shibley was about to speak when someone whispered how sorry he felt for him, having to fill his father’s shoes.
Following a respected founder carries pressure. Following a father brings that pressure home.
In this episode, Matt Davis talks with David and Jonathan Shibley about the succession at Global Advance - and how they remained close through it.
Jonathan joined with no promised title, served for ten years before becoming president, and had time to earn the confidence of the board and the people connected to the ministry.
David explains why he affirmed his son’s leadership publicly and kept disagreements private. Jonathan describes the insecurity of being compared with his father, the weight of becoming president, and learning to lead in his own way.
They also discuss their wives’ experiences, boundaries around family time, financial preparation, and the work David continues to do after leaving the presidency. It’s a hopeful account of a handoff that gave both generations room to serve.
Episode 100 - Lessons From 100 Ministry Transitions Stories (featuring the Ministry Transitions Team)
The church has a plan for who’s preaching next Sunday. Who’s checking on the pastor’s family on Monday?
For episode 100, our team at Ministry Transitions - Bill Tom, Matt Davis, Noe Rivera, and Ron Henry - talk about what has surprised us, what still breaks our hearts, and why we keep hearing, “I wish we’d found you sooner.”
Today, we get to talk with people who are asking “What now?” and “What’s next?” We also help the boards and leaders making hard decisions that will affect a family long after the announcement is over.
We talk about caring for spouses and kids, the humility to ask for help, and the moments when somebody begins to see a future again.
After 100 episodes, we believe more strongly than ever that the church should know how to say goodbye without destroying people.
Episode 99 - Succession Planning for the Ministry You Love (featuring Robin Fuller)
Why is it so hard to let go of a ministry you love before something forces the decision?
Robin Fuller knows firsthand. After more than 23 years in pregnancy center ministry, she burned out and heard that only about 10 percent of ministry leaders finish well.
She decided to be part of that 10 percent. Robin lifted the mantle off her shoulders in front of her board and walked through a four-year succession plan that started with a simple "Things I Do" document.
Matt and Robin talk about why founders struggle most, how a poverty mindset keeps leaders in the seat too long, and why outgoing leaders need to step away for at least six months. Robin also shares her new book, Finish Well: Succession Planning for the Ministry You Love.
Episode 98 - Leaving a Gift Or a Legacy? (featuring Anthony Barton)
Anthony Barton was a successful business owner when a trust attorney asked what his family mission statement was - not his business one.
That question pushed him beyond leaving a gift toward building a legacy, and within 90 days he and his family were serving in Swaziland.
Cancer later clarified the shift. Anthony sold his company, entered seminary, and now coaches Christian entrepreneurs through Convene.
In this conversation he shares frameworks for pausing and pivoting, caring for people as image-bearers, and looking for God's providence in disruption.
Episode 97 - Leading Through the Trust Jungle (featuring Rob McKenna)
What happens when trust breaks inside a church, nonprofit, or leadership team? Dr. Rob McKenna explains why trust is more than a feeling, how leaders can rebuild it after failure, and why succession is really the transfer of trust.
This conversation explores emotional maturity, candor, vulnerability, blind spots, competence, reliability, and the three questions every team member is asking: Do I matter? Are you telling me the truth? Do I belong here?
Episode 96 - Holding Gratitude & Grief (featuring Dennis Atwood)
Most ministry leaders expect to decide when they step away. Dennis Atwood never had that opportunity.
After serving churches for nearly three decades, Dennis was diagnosed with early-onset Parkinson's disease. He quietly carried the diagnosis for years before the progression of the disease forced him to step away from the pastorate he loved.
In this deeply honest conversation, Dennis reflects on grief, identity, suffering, and why choosing gratitude isn't about denying pain but discovering God's faithfulness in the middle of it.
Episode 95 - When Home Becomes the Mission Field (featuring Nate & Brittany Bruns)
Missionaries spend years preparing to go to the field, but few are prepared for what it feels like to come home.
After serving six years in Germany, Nate and Brittany Bruns share the unexpected challenges of returning to the United States, navigating reverse culture shock, raising third-culture kids, and rebuilding community.
Ultimately, they discovered God was calling them to live as missionaries in their own country.
Their story offers practical encouragement for missionaries, churches, and anyone walking through an unexpected ministry transition.
Episode 94 - Ministry, Mercy & Moving Forward (featuring Scott Sauls)
Few ministry leaders expect the end of their pastoral chapter to unfold differently than they imagined. Yet for many, transition arrives carrying both grief and unexpected opportunity.
In this honest conversation, Scott Sauls reflects on stepping away after more than 30 years of pastoral ministry, processing the loss of a role he loved, recovering from work addiction, and discovering a new calling shepherding high-capacity leaders.
Along the way, he offers wisdom about identity, friendship, reconciliation, and trusting God when the future feels uncertain.
Episode 93 - Healthy Pastors Plan Healthy Exits (featuring Keith Spurgin)
Founder transitions are some of the most difficult moments in ministry leadership, but they don't have to end poorly.
After leading the church he planted for 27 years, Keith Spurgin shares the lessons he learned about succession, feedback, sabbaticals, and letting go with confidence.
He also reflects on the leadership mistakes he nearly made during COVID and how stepping away for a year ultimately prepared both him and his church for a healthy transition.
Episode 92 - Finding Ministry at Home Depot (featuring Steve Cummings)
Many leaders secretly believe their value comes from what they do. But what happens when the title disappears, the ministry ends, or life takes a turn you never expected?
In this deeply personal conversation, Steve Cummings shares his journey through ministry leadership, addiction recovery, job loss, financial uncertainty, and ultimately discovering a deeper identity as a beloved son of God.
From sitting in rehab at age 55 to working at Home Depot and eventually launching Bringing Kingdom, Steve offers hope for anyone learning to trust God in a season they never planned for.
Episode 91 - Hope Is Within Reach (featuring Gary Blackard)
Most leaders know succession planning matters. Far fewer know how to start the conversation. In this episode, Gary Blackard, President and CEO of Adult & Teen Challenge USA, shares lessons from leading a national ministry, navigating leadership transitions, and helping people find hope in the midst of life's most difficult challenges. From succession planning and organizational stewardship to addiction recovery and spiritual formation, Gary offers practical wisdom for leaders preparing for what comes next.
Episode 90 - No Elevator to Everest (featuring Will Acuff)
Success in ministry can hide struggles that few people ever see.
While Will Acuff was helping build a nonprofit that would eventually launch thousands of entrepreneurs and transform communities, his family was walking through years of exhaustion, medical challenges, and uncertainty.
The contrast forced him to confront a difficult question: what happens when the strategies that helped you succeed no longer work?
In this conversation, Will shares the lessons he learned through leadership succession, personal suffering, and the unexpected journey that led him to write No Elevator to Everest.
For leaders facing transition, burnout, or uncertainty, this episode offers a hopeful vision for finding joy that is not dependent on circumstances.
Episode 89 - A Wealth of Ministry Outside of Ministry (featuring Shawn Gwaltney)
Leaving ministry is rarely a simple decision.
For many pastors, it comes after years of carrying responsibility, managing expectations, and trying to care for everyone around them while quietly neglecting themselves and their families.
In this episode, Shawn Gwaltney shares the story of how ministry slowly became unsustainable, what pushed him toward transition, and how he eventually rediscovered purpose through business, mentorship, and helping others find clarity.
This conversation offers hope for leaders wrestling with burnout, identity loss, and the fear of what comes next after ministry.
Episode 88 - Mending the Fracturing Church (featuring Dr. Andrew Hale)
The Church is carrying more tension than many leaders know how to navigate. Political polarization, fractured trust, rising anxiety, and unrealistic expectations on pastors are reshaping congregations across the country.
In this conversation, Dr. Andrew Hale shares why he believes the Church is not collapsing but entering a moment of reformation.
Together, we explore how ministry leaders can stop treating non-essential issues as ultimate ones, rebuild authentic community, and lead congregations toward healthier relationships rooted in Christ instead of cultural division.
Episode 87 - The Imperfect CEO (featuring Jim Brown)
Leadership transitions often expose something many leaders spend years trying to hide: the fear that they are not enough for the role they carry.
Whether it is a pastor navigating succession, a nonprofit executive facing organizational change, or a CEO realizing old leadership methods no longer work, the pressure to appear confident and certain can quietly isolate leaders from the people they serve.
In this conversation, Jim Brown shares why healthy leadership begins when leaders stop trying to be the hero of the organization and start building collaborative cultures where people feel valued, empowered, and trusted.
Together, we explore the emotional realities underneath leadership transitions, difficult staffing decisions, and organizational change.
They discuss why so many leaders stay too long, how fear often disguises itself as faithfulness, and why humility and vulnerability are becoming essential leadership qualities in today’s world.
The conversation offers practical wisdom for ministry leaders who want to navigate transition seasons with greater clarity, courage, and care.
Episode 86 - How to Hand Off a Church Without Losing It (featuring Wayne Hoag)
Church transitions often expose what has been neglected for years.
In this conversation, longtime pastor Wayne Hoag reflects on the painful lessons he learned after leaving one church unprepared for his departure and how that experience shaped a completely different approach to succession later in ministry.
Together, we explore what healthy pastoral transitions require: humility, long-term preparation, deep love for the church, and the willingness to release control before crisis forces the issue.
The conversation also digs into the spiritual side of leadership transition. Wayne shares how unity and love inside the body of Christ become especially important during seasons of change and why churches that avoid difficult conversations often create deeper wounds later.
Episode 85 - Missing Links in Ministry Successions (featuring John Pearson)
Leadership transitions often don’t fail in the moment they happen. They begin to unravel long before that.
In unclear expectations, undefined roles, and decisions made without discernment.
This episode explores how fear, lack of clarity, and misaligned leadership structures quietly shape outcomes. It offers a clearer path forward for leaders and boards navigating change.
Episode 84 - Lost in Transition (featuring Steve Woodworth)
Succession is one of the most important moments in the life of a ministry.
And one of the most misunderstood.
After decades working with leading Christian organizations, Steve Woodworth has watched leadership transitions unfold from behind the scenes.
Some created momentum and clarity. Others quietly eroded trust, fractured relationships, and stalled mission.
What makes the difference?
In this episode, Steve shares the patterns he’s seen across hundreds of organizations, why internal succession is often more effective, and how boards and leaders can work together to create a “no drama” transition.
This conversation is both practical and deeply human, addressing not just strategy but identity, trust, and the emotional reality leaders face as they step out of their roles.
Episode 83 - Leading Christian Organizations Through Change (featuring Tami Heim)
Leadership often looks clear in hindsight but confusing in the moment.
For Tami Heim, the journey into leadership began with a dramatic shift in ambition. Just days after graduating college, she surrendered her plans to follow Christ, stepping into a life where leadership was no longer about advancement but obedience.
Over the next several decades, that calling would lead her through massive corporate change, cultural disruption, and deeply personal trials.
From navigating retail mergers and the rise of Amazon to leading during national crises and personal loss, each moment shaped how she understands faith, leadership, and God’s faithfulness.
Today, as president and CEO of the Christian Leadership Alliance, Tami helps equip leaders across more than 125 countries.
In this conversation, she shares how leaders can seek God in uncertainty, navigate disruption, and lead with both competence and spiritual depth.
This episode is an invitation to rediscover leadership as an adventure with God rather than a platform to control.
Facing Life After Ministry can feel hopeless, but it doesn’t have to be.
Whether you've stepped away from your position by choice, or circumstances have forced a change, it's a monumental shift that leaves many wondering, "What's next?" If you're at this crossroads, you may feel alone, overwhelmed, and unsure about the road ahead.
We want you to know that you're not alone in this transition. There's not just life after ministry - there's a chance to thrive.
Sharing is caring.
Listen to an episode and help us spread the word by leaving a 5-star review on Apple Podcasts.
“Just listened to Matt and Marilee unpacked their own story in episode one. So generous, honest, and invitational. Thanks for meeting a "gap" in the ministry world, and by that I mean the shattered heads and hearts wandering the land like Christendom's own take on the Walking Dead. I pray this resurrects many, opens eyes for their families and communities, causing an increase in empathy among God's people.”
- Scott White
David, Former Pastor
"I felt lost after leaving the ministry. This podcast showed me a way forward."
Sarah, Ex-Missionary
"Life After Ministry Podcast was a lifeline during my transition. Now, I'm thriving in my new chapter!"
The Struggles of Transitioning
Stepping away from pastoral service can be a lonely journey filled with uncertainties. What will your new identity be? How do you make sense of the changes? The stakes are high - but you don't have to navigate this alone.
