What if the health of your ministry depends more on your board than you think? Dr. Michael Anthony has spent 40 years in boardrooms - as a member, chair, consultant, and C-suite leader - and he’s seen what works and what breaks ministries apart.

In this candid conversation, Dr. Anthony unpacks common mistakes boards make, the unseen cost of poor governance, and the simple practices that lead to longevity and mission health.

From defining lanes to using a “log of motions,” from succession planning to EQ, he explains why leadership transitions succeed - or fail - long before the public ever sees it.

And he gets personal, sharing the story of his most painful ministry transition, the “dark night of the soul” it brought, and how God restored his joy and purpose.

Whether you’re a ministry leader, board member, or walking through a transition, this episode will give you tools to strengthen your leadership and hope for what’s next.

What do scuba diving, salary spreadsheets, and severance packages have in common? According to David Fletcher - everything. 

In this episode, Matt sits down with the founder of xPastor and longtime executive pastor, David Fletcher, to talk about the messy, complicated, and deeply human work of leadership transitions in the church.

They unpack the real cost of bad transitions - not just in dollars, but in broken trust. 

Dave shares stories from his 30+ years in ministry, including firing people he loved, navigating church politics without losing his soul, and why a generous severance might be the best culture-shaping tool a church has. 

You'll also hear how he and his wife built a thriving marriage in the middle of ministry chaos, and why their daily Starbucks date is sacred.

It's honest. It's wise. It’s surprisingly funny. And it’s a masterclass for anyone leading people, especially in the church.

What if the scariest thing about leaving ministry wasn’t the loss of your job - but the loss of your identity? 

In this episode, Matt sits down with Josh Taylor, former executive pastor turned chief marketing officer, who opens up about what it’s really like to step off the platform and into the unknown. 

From twelve years of trusted leadership in a growing church to a surprising turn through a university layoff and a marketing agency for car washes, Josh’s story is full of quiet pivots, faithful risk-taking, and unexpected grace.

But this isn’t just about changing careers. It’s about the slow death of pride, learning to hear God's voice outside the church walls, and becoming the kind of husband, father, and friend you were always meant to be.

If you’ve ever wondered what ministry looks like when your title disappears - or felt a holy nudge toward “something more” - this conversation will meet you right where you are.

Alicia Lee didn’t leave ministry. She left Wall Street.

After nearly two decades at Goldman Sachs, Alicia was managing a massive trading floor and rubbing shoulders with IPO titans like Jack Ma and Snapchat execs. She loved the fast pace. She was good at it. 

And then God pulled the plug. A missed promotion became a divine pivot - and what followed was not a sabbatical, but a startup.

In this episode, we dive deep into Alicia’s unlikely journey from investment banking to launching Faithly, a digital ecosystem for ministry leaders - built not to replace community, but to amplify it. 

She opens up about her hustle, her heartbreak, and her unshakeable sense of calling.

If you’ve ever wrestled with identity in a transition, if you’ve ever been tempted to white-knuckle your way to the next thing, or if you’re still unsure what ministry looks like outside the walls of the church - this conversation will hit home.

Alicia’s story isn’t just about leaving a job. It’s about finding your voice when your title disappears.

What do you do when ministry success comes at the cost of your soul?

In this episode, we sit down with Jon Talbert - pastor, coach, and founder of Forte - to talk about the quiet unraveling that often happens behind the scenes in leadership. 

Jon has led at the highest levels of church and nonprofit work, but somewhere along the way, he realized he was losing himself in the process. What followed wasn’t a dramatic exit - but a deliberate shift. A reckoning. A redefinition of calling.

If you’ve ever questioned your role, your rhythm, or even your relevance in ministry, this conversation will hit close to home. 

Jon gets honest about burnout, identity, and why courage sometimes looks like letting go.

This isn’t just about recovering from ministry. It’s about discovering what’s next - with less fear and more freedom.

Bill Simmons thought he was in control - until a child soldier in the Congo held him at gunpoint. In that moment, as the AK-47 clicked into place, Bill realized the terrifying truth: control was an illusion.

Years later, as the CEO of a global nonprofit, he faced a different kind of pressure - leading an organization, carrying the weight of a mission, and pushing through exhaustion. 

But this time, the gun wasn’t in someone else’s hands. It was the slow, creeping pressure of burnout, and it was just as dangerous.

In this episode, Bill shares how he went from being a leader on the brink to discovering the power of interruption.

He unpacks why so many pastors and ministry leaders are running on empty, why stepping away feels impossible, and how his sabbatical at a silent monastery changed everything.

Burnout isn’t a badge of honor - it’s a warning sign. If you feel the weight of ministry pressing down on you, this conversation is your lifeline.

In this episode of the Life After Ministry podcast, we tackle a critical issue that often serves as a catalyst for pastoral transitions: burnout. While our mission at Pastoral Transitions is to support ministry leaders in their journey out of ministry, we're equally passionate about preventing burnout to keep our church leaders healthy, strong, and vibrant.

Joining us is Jonathan Malm, co-author of "Don't Burn Out, Burn Bright," a book offering practical wisdom on avoiding the pitfalls that lead many in ministry to prematurely press the eject button.