At some point in ministry, we start confusing busyness for faithfulness. We tell ourselves that exhaustion is just the cost of obedience - that being needed, stretched thin, and constantly available somehow means we’re doing it right. 

But deep down, we know something’s wrong.

In this episode of Life After Ministry, Matt Davis sits down with his longtime friend Andrew Hartman to talk about what happens when time becomes our boss. Andrew shares how his own burnout - marked by real physical breakdown - became the turning point that changed his relationship with time and work forever.

This isn’t a conversation about calendars or to-do lists. It’s about trust, limits, and the grace of learning how to stop before it’s too late. For anyone in ministry who’s running on empty, this one might be preventative - so you never have to live life after ministry.

Most pastors imagine ministry as a lifelong calling, until something shifts - slowly, painfully, or all at once. 

In this episode, Brad Gray and Brad Nelson share their unfiltered stories of leaving pastoral ministry, wrestling through uncertainty, and discovering the faithful presence of God in seasons where nothing made sense. 

Their journeys reveal how transitions can expose hidden wounds, force honest discernment, and ultimately reshape our understanding of calling.

From uprooting a thriving teaching pastor role with no job on the other side, to the quiet unraveling that nearly cost a marriage, both men walk through the tension, grief, and surprising grace that comes when God invites you into a future you can’t yet see. 

And at the center of their healing is a rediscovery of the Lord’s Prayer - not as a childhood memory, but as a daily blueprint for partnering with God.

This conversation is hope for the discouraged, a mirror for the exhausted, and a companion for anyone wondering whether there is life after ministry. There is. And it might be more expansive than you expect.

Dr. Nathan Baxter loved ten hours of his job. 

Those one-on-ones with staff fueled him. The rest slowly emptied him. Naming that truth started a two-year journey out of a role he’d held for decades. He didn’t abandon ministry. He changed vehicles so his calling could breathe again.

In this conversation Nathan walks through a practical runway. He set a modest income target, built a small savings cushion, and launched a coaching practice with a pastor’s heart. He also shares the moment his elders asked him to leave sooner than planned and chose surprising generosity, a gift that humbled him more than any pain.

Now coaching CEOs and pastors alike, Nathan talks finishing well, clarifying a “particular purpose,” and the three anchors every leader over 50 needs: margin, influence, and hyper-intentional living. 

If transition feels like free fall, this episode will help you steady your soul and take the next right step.

When the role that once fit like a second skin begins to suffocate, what do you do? For Duncan Robinson, it meant stepping away. No scandal. No collapse. Just honesty and courage to say, “I need to sit down and be fed.”

That decision took him from church staff to radio hosting, from the pulpit to row three, and eventually back into ministry with a new clarity. 

Along the way, he discovered how to face failure without fear, how to detach identity from role, and why bi-vocational rhythms might be the healthiest way forward for pastors.

If you’re navigating transition - or helping someone who is - this conversation offers language and hope for what comes next.

Ministry employment isn’t just HR. It’s covenant community, stewardship, and public witness. 

In this episode, attorney and former ministry leader John Melcon explains how churches and nonprofits can handle staff transitions without abandoning their values or ignoring real risks.

John shares his own sudden exit from a director role in Christian higher education and how that season led him to serve ministries as legal counsel. 

He outlines why U.S. courts often take a hands-off approach to religious leadership disputes, what that means for pastors and boards, and how to prepare before conflict ever arises.

From “talk about your last day on your first day” to using Christian conciliation instead of civil court, this conversation offers a road map: clarity in writing, compassion in tone, and a process that keeps the mission central.

Quiet fatigue rarely announces itself. It hums under the surface until a crisis forces a decision. 

In this conversation, Marine veteran and Forte co-founder Vineet Rajan reframes care for leaders as mental fitness - a proactive, daily practice that keeps pastors and nonprofit teams clear-headed, resilient, and ready.

We contrast mental fitness with therapy, name the everyday pressures leaders face, and offer accessible rhythms that fit real life. 

You’ll hear why churches are becoming early adopters, how to reduce noise so you can notice what God is saying, and why outcomes - not just usage - should drive board decisions.

If you lead people, steward budgets, or carry a call that feels heavier than it used to, this episode gives you language, guardrails, and next steps to strengthen your team without adding shame or hype.

When termination happens behind a closed door, the impact lands in the kitchen, the car line, and the kids’ bedrooms. 

In this episode, pastor’s wife Kristen Joy Humiston tells the story of being shut out of the room, hearing “you’re done here,” and driving home past the houses of those who voted yes.

Matt and Marilee name what many spouses carry in silence: rejection before termination, the isolation that follows, and how trauma forms when you have no voice, no choice, and no people. 

They also get practical. What to do on day one. How to breathe, pack, and protect your children. How boards can reduce harm and how churches can care for the whole family, not just the titleholder.

There is life after ministry. It may look different than you imagined. Yet dignity, honest community, and thoughtful planning can close a wound and leave a healed scar. 

This conversation offers language, tools, and hope for spouses, leaders, and boards who want to do hard things better.

When a beloved role ends, identity gets loud. 

In this candid conversation, Joshua Gordon traces his journey from ministry-adjacent entrepreneur to a surprising new assignment after his business collapsed in COVID. A trusted friend’s hard words, deep prayer, and patient community became “spiritual physio” that restored his sense of self in Christ.

We talk about the gap between intention and impact in church transitions, why being “driven” can hide quiet desperation, and how to hear God’s still small voice before things are literally on fire. 

Josh shares the practical and pastoral moves that protected his marriage, his kids, and his future calling.

If you are a leader facing an ending, a board guiding one, or a pastor recovering from one, this episode offers language, wisdom, and hope. Faithfulness isn’t empire building. It’s walking with Jesus in ordinary choices that shape a lifetime.